Since we endorse Western Rite, why don't you? Open Discussion, so we'll take callers, and anyone who wishes to challenge our position can offer up their take!
Since we endorse Western Rite, why don’t you? Open Discussion, so we’ll take callers, and anyone who wishes to challenge our position can offer up their take!
I can’t make out the name of that Bishop you mention at 19:08
This really puts the situation of the Old Believers into perspective. Persecuting them for practising the Old Rite was unjust.
Saint Tikhon didn’t object to the proposed norms set down by Julian Joseph Oberbeck, he was CAUTIOUS, always be cautious, but I suppose his time in San Francisco helped him grasp the Troubadour symbolism. You want the Western Rite to be stricken of ALL Troubadour symbolism? Then your ultimate cut off is NOT 1054, but 800, because the Troubadour Symbolism and poetry that the “Sacred Heart” jargon is based on AROSE in France during his reign, and spread throughout Western Europe from there. It never caught on with the Rus, however. Greeks were familiar, but it wasn’t to their taste. It DID catch on, a bit, later on with the (then) Schism-Neutral Melkite, however. That may be why the Western Rite Vicariate under Antioch is tolerant of all that Troubadour language and a few elements of Trent, and were the natural branch to take up Overbeck’s and Saint Tikhon’s work, in the direction Overbeck preferred it. I’m not sure what he would have made of Antioch’s decision to embrace a few trappings of Trent, as in his 1866 book on “Orthodox Catholicism” (he was very opposed to bending over to denominational norms and insisted we call ourselves Orthodox CATHOLICS), he spoke very strongly against the validity of Trent as a council, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that he would not have been open to an independent minor council considering some of those ideas, such as the Newly solidly Orthodox Antioch ultimately did by 1958. However, I am quite certain that he would have been surprised at how much of a stumbling block the Troubadour symbolism has been for so many Russian bishops, as it already had 225 years or so experience in the Western tradition by 1054, which is itself a disputed cutoff. I, myself, am more partial to 1204, following the abominable betrayal, giving it 375 years of established tradition as a valid form of symbolism for the western rite.
I don’t think it should be standardized or forbidden. What we have happened to develop is perfectly fine with me: let you under Moscow make your case and let those ultimately uncomfortable with the Troubadour symbolism embrace your extra originalist version of Saint Gregory the Great’s Mass and the Salisbury and Jerome Masses; but leave us under Antioch alone who prefer the Versions of Gregory and Tikhon’s masses we’ve established since 1958. Not all of Rome’s ideas since 1054 have been heterodox, they just need to be evaluated individually by each Patriarchate. There’s nothing wrong with us ultimately having different comfort zones.
It is tragically ironic that Rome has EVERYTHING preserved needed to be Orthodox and yet, remains determined to trust in their own arbitrary innovations.
Sorry, you are only correct in the proliferation of the Immaculate Hearts as DOGMATIC symbolism, hitting an all time high in the last 400 years. As NON-dogmatic symbolism, it goes all the way back to the beginning of the high Middle Ages Troubadours. The western rite must reject it as a necessary dogma, but to say it has no deeper roots is misinformed. It also has some biblical basis, such as Christ’s heart being pierced by Longenious, and and Mary’s Heart being spiritually pierced 7 times.
Anachronisms in religious art is all over the place.
Amen ! i really like this and it's truly helping me grow in my faith thank you all kyle schu 🙂 but how does Western Rite Orthodoxy not closes to the roman catholic church because isn't the Western Rite Orthodox churches more sounds like a water down latin rite catholic mass while using something closes to latin mass etc of then how can you say there fully orthodox with there doing a western rite service when in fact deacon joseph and bishop enoch you gotta ask yourself this 1.) Does the reconstituted "western rite" actually represent an authentic return to the pre-schismatic Orthodox worship of the ancient Christian west?
2.) If there were a mass return of western Christians to Orthodoxy (say, union with Rome or Canterbury), would this "western rite" provide a workable precedent? 3.) Does the Orthodox Church need a "western rite" in order to evangelize Americans? 4.) Does the "western rite" serve the internal needs of the Orthodox Church in this country today? Does the reconstituted "western rite" actually represent an authentic return to the pre-schismatic Orthodox worship of the ancient Christian west? whereas In defense of this rite, some Orthodox are saying that we should accept it because it contains "nothing heretical." Unfortunately, that itself is an Anglican argument. An Orthodox rite must do far more than avoid heresy – it must clearly proclaim and teach the Orthodox faith. In Communist Russia as in Ottoman Greece, the Orthodox Liturgy alone maintained the faith through long years of persecution. Bearing in mind that Cranmer was probably a Zwinglian who designed his rite to express "the real absence" of Christ in the Eucharist, it is easy to see that the "Liturgy of St. Tikhon" could never meet the basic criterion of being an Orthodox Liturgy. when The Western Orthodox church was simply the Western Rite of the Orthodox church. officially there has not been a Western Rite Orthodox Patriarch since 1054-when we excommunicated the Vatican. Unofficially Rome fell into Heresy before that. There are some modern day Western Rite churches that tend to use a modified Anglican book of common prayer or more like the latin mass of 1962 or st tikhon to more that as some far fetch as sounded calls them self western rite orthodoxy but some use too the roman mass like in today as where some calls them old believers orthodoxy or call themselves western rite orthodox but not truly orthodoxy in there faith because the eastern Church uses the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom and Saint basil. while most western rite orthodoxy old believers orthodoxy when the holy fathers tells us all from on The Divine Liturgy The word liturgy means common work or common action. The Divine Liturgy is the common work of the Orthodox Church. It is the official action of the Church formally gathered together as the chosen People of God. The word church, as we remember, means a gathering or assembly of people specifically chosen and called apart to perform a particular task. The Divine Liturgy is the common action of Orthodox Christians officially gathered to constitute the Orthodox Church. It is the action of the Church assembled by God in order to be together in one community to worship, to pray, to sing, to hear God’s Word, to be instructed in God’s commandments, to offer itself with thanksgiving in Christ to God the Father, and to have the living experience of God’s eternal kingdom through communion with the same Christ Who is present in his people by the Holy Spirit. The Divine Liturgy is always done by Orthodox Christians on the Lord’s Day which is Sunday, the “day after Sabbath” which is symbolic of the first day of creation and the last day—or as it is called in Holy Tradition, the eighth day—of the Kingdom of God. This is the day of Christ’s resurrection from the dead, the day of God’s judgment and victory predicted by the prophets, the Day of the Lord which inaugurates the presence and the power of the “kingdom to come” already now within the life of this present world. The Divine Liturgy is also celebrated by the Church on special feast days. It is usually celebrated daily in monasteries, and in some large cathedrals and parish churches, with the exception of the week days of Great Lent when it is not served because of its paschal character. As the common action of the People of God, the Divine Liturgy may be celebrated only once on any given day in an Orthodox Christian community. All of the members of the Church must be gathered together with their pastor in one place at one time. This includes even small children and infants who participate fully in the communion of the liturgy from the day of their entrance into the Church through baptism and chrismation. Always everyone, always together. This is the traditional expression of the Orthodox Church about the Divine Liturgy. Because of its common character, the Divine Liturgy may never be celebrated privately by the clergy alone. It may never be served just for some and not for others, but for all. It may never be served merely for some private purposes or some specific or exclusive intentions. Thus there may be, and usually are, special petitions at the Divine Liturgy for the sick or the departed, or for some very particular purposes or projects, but there is never a Divine Liturgy which is done exclusively for private individuals or specific isolated purposes or intentions. The Divine Liturgy is always “on behalf of all and for all.” Because the Divine Liturgy exists for no other reason than to be the official all-inclusive act of prayer, worship, teaching, and communion of the entire Church in heaven and on earth, it may not be considered merely as one devotion among many, not even the highest or the greatest. The Divine Liturgy is not an act of personal piety. It is not a prayer service. It is not merely one of the sacraments. The Divine Liturgy is the one common sacrament of the very being of the Church itself. It is the one sacramental manifestation of the essence of the Church as the Community of God in heaven and on earth. It is the one unique sacramental revelation of the Church as the mystical Body and Bride of Christ. As the central mystical action of the whole church, the Divine Liturgy is always resurrectional in spirit. It is always the manifestation to his people of the Risen Christ. It is always an outpouring of the life-creating Spirit. It is always communion with God the Father. The Divine Liturgy, therefore, is never mournful or penitential. It is never the expression of the darkness and death of this world. It is always the expression and the experience of the eternal life of the Kingdom of the Blessed Trinity. Basil Great Saint Basil the Great The Divine Liturgy celebrated by the Orthodox Church is called the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom. It is a shorter liturgy than the so-called Liturgy of Saint Basil the Great that is used only ten times during the Church Year. These two liturgies probably received their present form after the ninth century. It is not the case that they were written exactly as they now stand by the saints whose names they carry. It is quite certain, however, that the eucharistic prayers of each of these liturgies were formulated as early as the fourth and fifth centuries when these saints lived and worked in the Church. just as the Western Rite Orthodox churches that of + St. Basil the Great, Letter #92, “To the Italians and Gauls” then too i hope you come and seek in Becoming In The Truth And In Spirit so as holy bible puts it John 8:32 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. whereby Jesus himself tells is us from 2 Corinthians 4:4 – In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. for our so so blinded then that we truly can't see as ye holy bible tells us from in 1 John 1:6-8 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. and be just become Orthodoxy who and forever in thee Light Of Christ of the only fullness of faith that has never been changed with is alive today and still and not really Western Rite Orthodoxy who instead act like roman catholic not faith nor this true teaching in eastern rite orthodoxy as Jesus Christ Tells Us From In Luke 8:13 – They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away or in Ephesians 6:14 – Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; and 2 Peter 2:15 – Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam [the son] of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; yes the truth will and only can set thee eastern orthodox church give to her church back to this faith our very lord give to our very lord her teachings by words and faith that very same to gives her holy wisdom and light from the darkness where from in 2 Peter 2:1 – But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.we must not let the hinder of man teachings and man ways corrupt the error's thank you kyle schu 🙂
What's wrong with the rosary without the ignatian type mediations?
(I'm considering converting to Orthodoxy so this is all new to me)
You’re all converts.
I used to condemn the snobbery, and sometimes downright racism, of those born within Orthodoxy being reluctant to warm up to former western Protestants and their attraction to Orthodoxy, but now I get it. Wondering if either of you ever even took the time to learn Russian, Greek, Slovak or just worry yourselves with whether so-and-so should have a hat in his icon?
LOL
Is there anything in Massachusetts
I'm in NC and would love to have a Western Rite Orthodox mission in my area.
The confusion only becomes worse, as those Roman Catholic Mass rituals introduce other Augustinian problems. The Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy remains unsurpassed in the progression of the person from hearing the Word of God to receiving Him in His Holy Body and Precious Blood which energizes each one who is a New Creation from Orthodox Baptism. Or – is there simply chrismation to add insult to injury and commence the confusion of "mixing" and diluting the Orthodox understanding of Holy Baptism of immersion, etc. (humbly suggest our videos: "Judith Irene Matta" MTh former RC novice-nun and taught by Jesuits; this aids my comparison of East-West for in-depth understanding of dangers of Western philosophy)
4:45 Is it possible that the Stations of the Cross are acceptable? I believe it emerged in the 12th century
45:22 I don't know if they use unleavened bread. I've heard some use dry leaven which doesn't cause the bread to rise, which you could say is pretty legalistic, but I'm not sure about just straightforwardly using unleavened bread.