Talk given by Archpriest Father Josiah Trenham at Saint Barnabas Orthodox Church in Costa Mesa California. Father Josiah delivers an Orthodox perspective on the Roman Catholic Church.
Talk given by Archpriest Father Josiah Trenham at Saint Barnabas Orthodox Church in Costa Mesa California. Father Josiah delivers an Orthodox perspective on the Roman Catholic Church.
I've walked away from the Roman Church a few months ago. I still crave some kind of liturgy though. Really can't justify the current church. I'm sure there's got to be skeletons in the Orthodox closet though. It can't all be just Roman scandals.
Excellent video and assessment of the Latin Church. Does anyone know how to get in contact with Father Josiah? I have some questions to ask him.
An Evangelical Protestant response to this – including some response to the Rock and Sand videos and book.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2021/06/22/an-eastern-orthodox-perspective-on-roman-catholicism-and-on-protestant-faith/
Why do you sit in judgement of God !
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 16: 18-19
"When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” A second time he said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep".
John 21:15-17
"And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd"
Jonh 10:16
On being baptized by our name (09:15), My birth name is Justin, and I was told that I could use that when I was baptized, but my wife and I both had come to the names Joachim and Anna Separately and it seemed like such an incredible irony that I gladly was baptized as Joachim and love these precious saints. But since converting and reading the writings of St. Justin Martyer and other Orthodox Justin's like Fr. Justin Popovich I have discovered a whole new love for my birth name as well.
Raping nuns on the altars? That has to be the worst thing I've ever heard.
I was born Catholic but not practicing because I feel let down by the Church and the upper clergy which I've identified as always going along with the current mainstream and powers. I know there were and are a lot of good Christians in the CC, but I've begun reading Seraphim Rose's books and they made me interested in Orthodoxy. I will listen to this talk with great interest.
What unbelievable nonsense. This idiot seems to believe that standing up or sitting down to listen to fairy stories represents some important theological difference illustrating the superiority of his own tribal customs. I used to live in Greece so I am interested in the Orthodox Church and mistakenly thought this moron might have something interesting to say. But as he doesn't seem to speak Greek (mispronouncing the Greek word schism) or Russian or any of the traditional Orthodox languages, I suppose this is just another example of the corruption of all civilization in America. Nul points.
While this video was a interesting perspective of someone who has disdain for the Catholic Church he is sowing seeds of division when both our Churches have more in common than different. While I agree that I'm no fan of many modern Catholic ideas our Dogma is still the same.
Father, what you had to say regarding the Marian revelations of Fatima, which the Catholic Church claims to have been given to three Portuguese shepherd children in 1917, is a stunning tissue of untruths.
For starters, as commenter Andrew Martin pointed out to you, the Fatima seers weren't "three sisters" (which you later oddly refer to twice as "daughters"). In fact, there were two girls and a boy: Jacinta and Francisco were siblings and cousins of Lucia, the oldest of the three.
You took issue with that part of the so-called revelations dealing with the conversion of Russia, maintaining that if Mary did indeed prophesy that, she could only have meant the conversion of Russia to Orthodoxy, not Catholicism. Here's the thing, though: Catholics have ALWAYS been given to understand that the conversion would be to their church, not yours. (I know this because before I turned atheist around the year 2000, I was an ardent devotee of Our Lady of Fatima and went on a pilgrimage there in 1988 at the age of 38. And I was fairly well versed in her messages.)
The idea that Mary would have encouraged Catholics to pray for the conversion of Russia to Orthodoxy is absurd on its face. One has to wonder: Why has she never appeared to Orthodox believers to pray for that, if it's so important? Mind you, this is the same Mary who called for the establishment in the world of "devotion to my Immaculate Heart"–a devotion utterly anathema to the Orthodox, as you'll undoubtedly agree.
To buttress your contention that it was conversion to Orthodoxy that she encouraged the seers, along with Catholics worldwide, to pray for, you called on the titular King of Portugal sometime in 2016 to ask: Isn't that the case? Incredibly, everything he had to say in that exchange is perfectly false.
In his affirmative reply to your question, he asserted, "I am personally acquainted with the youngest of the daughters [sic]." What a howler! The youngest of the seers died in 1920 at the age of 10, Father. So, the king can only be delusional or a liar. You went on to quote him as saying, "I have corresponded with her on many occasions." Another piece of mendacity or delusional thinking. (Many occasions, no less!)
Then you went on to say, "I think she just died within this last year [2018]." But as I mentioned above, the youngest of the seers died in 1920. The last of the three to die was Lucia, and that was in 2005. Either way, you're mistaken.
You went on to quote the king as saying that he actually wrote her a letter (oy!) to ask that very question, i.e., conversion of Russia to Orthodoxy or Catholicism? And the "daughter," as you referred to her again, replied to him that it would be conversion to Orthodoxy.
"Very interesting," you remarked. Yes, indeed–but in a way polar opposite to what you imagine.
You asked the king whether he intended to publish the letter, which drew chuckles from your audience. "It would be very nice, if he would," you remarked. (Of course, he never will–for the excellent reason that it doesn't exist.) You concluded your anecdote by saying, "I'm not going to forget that I heard that story."
But you'd best forget it, Father. From end to end, it's hokum.
It is sad to see how much hatred and distortion of history this guy have in his heart. The bishop of Constantinople was a fraud and was accused, in history, of being a mole for the Trucks. That is why there was a war that orthodox greeks are finding offensive. This war in history was a Greek request. No fact in this video is true. The Papal primacy is in fact limiting the Papal power to dogmatic and very rare matters which the Orthodox Popes do anyway. In fact this schism is not an old history, it is a power issues between countries and Popes and shame on you for making it about Jesus Christ. You are blinded with hatred and I invite you to open your heart to humanity and do what Christ ask you to do which is love .
I’m an orthodox but I’m still have to say
There were two girls and cone boy
And the girl who lived was the oldest amongst those three
And she died at 2005
Such bitterness and outright BIGOTRY. This is not Jesus. This is man stepping in for Jesus for power.
As a Roman Catholic, I have never heard a negative word about the Orthodox Church so I am disappointed by this rhetoric coming from an Orthodox priest. I can see you have brought your anti-Catholic prejudice with you when you converted. Seek unity not division. I hope the Orthodox Church in general and your congregation in particular will thrive.
We are all apostates and heretics. Thanks.
An uncle of a dear friend is a Vatican lawyer. He told me that most of the words in scripture spoken by our Lord He never said. This is the belief with many in the Vatican. Surely this is one of if not the primary reason for loss of faith and thus the corruptions.
So much of what he said is completely and utterly false.
St Thomas Aquinas was giving a personal theological opinion about communion with the Pope based on the early Church Fathers' reverence for unity with the Roman See. It was never official doctrine that "the Greeks" were damned, just in danger because of schism. Because Orthodoxy does not have an equivalent concept of the development of Christian doctrine as a Holy Spirit led deepening of understanding of what it means to be Catholic, this good priest mistakenly believes the Catholic Church changes dogmas. The Catholic Church today recognises Orthodoxy as Catholic in essence but with the appearance and practice of separation. Serious enough but not fatal for ultimate unity based on truth and humble and mutual trust.
So what is "The One Church" he mentions then? It seems like there was no "One Church", ever. Even before the schism and since the first century, congregations spread throughout the Roman Empire where at odds with each other when it came to theology, dogma and praxis. The amount of ecumenical councils proves that there was never any unity between the churches and bishoprics.
I just wish the Orthodox Church offered more opportunities for female religious life that involves being active in communities
He kissed the altar but his heart is far from God. Isa. 29:13, Eze 33:31 and Mt. 15:7-9.
The ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH (RCC) and the Orthodox Church lack the Eldership Doctrine.
TWO ARTICLES
Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets."
The “permissions” the RCC or so called, Orthodox perceive, by interpretation, are a patent violation of the core doctrine of Proverbs 30:5-6 beginning in genesis 2 and going through Revelation 22 and end with Isaiah’s proclamation:
Isa. 29:13, Eze 33:31 and Mt. 15:7-9.
The house of the Lord built defined by the four corners of scripture stands immune from all attacks and persecution while the ungodly trappings of men is vulnerable every which way they make their lawless pretense, AND ESPECIALLY TO THE MOUTH OF THE LORD.
And this is the biggest problem I have with the ROMAN Catholic Church and its baby sister, Orthodox. There was never any written Scripture that we would have anything like we have in the RCC and Orthodox Churches today.
The RCC resembles only the ancient government of ROME, while the Orthodox only denied the Pope and both wear only a splashed perfume of Christianity. Neither have the governing principles of the church / congregation of Christ very well laid out in 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus, together with the practicality of those interactions shown us in Acts.
The ROMAN church was certainly one of the churches of Christ in the beginning, but by AD 607 the first Pope arose and excommunicated ALL THE REST OF CHRISTIANITY. Peter denied being a pope and Christ would never have given his authority as "Head" to anyone but himself of his own church/congregation. So, it was ROME who broke communion with Christ and not the other way around.
Amos (and the four corners of scripture) tell us what the church of Christ was to be like, how we would identify it, and we were warned in very strong language to have nothing to do with the whore.
I may lose some friends saying this, but one would rather — I HOPE — have opportunity to consider the truth than to be kept in the dark. These things are not hard to prove, because if Amos was a true prophet (and he was), there would have to have been some indication from the apostles who laid the Christian foundation (1 Co 3:10, Eph 2:20) as to what we actually have in the ROMAN and Orthodox Churches, and they gave no such prophecies — except the one in 2 Thes. 2:1-12 about the Pope. The Pope has been "lawless" since his beginning and his little sister follows suit. They abide neither the counsel of Scripture nor the pattern that was laid down by the apostles who said, (2 Pe 1:3) was complete and with the "full knowledge" (epignosis, not just the gnosis/knowledge), plus consider Matthew 7:21ff.
So, Amos's test applied to the ROMAN Church refutes the ROMAN claims as being the Vicar of Christ, Peter the head, or having more than the keys to open the kingdom of God by way of his TESTIMONY that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Matthew 16:16-18, cf. Romans 10:9-10.
All the additions and deletions of Scripture the ROMAN and Orthodox Churches engage in, fits the decree by Jesus, "You only err when you do not know the Scripture or the power of God", Mark 12:24. Therefore, the picture we're given of the church of Christ is not what the RCC or Orthodox Churches ever were since at least AD 607 but syncretized, apostate CHURCHES, which Christ is very unhappy about and will destroy with the “breath of His mouth” when He returns, 2 Th 2:1-12..
From @DennisLange
God is Lord and has always directed men who seek Him how they shall approach Him and how they shall worship Him. He directed Noah how to build the ark. He directed Israel how to build the tabernacle. The Christian religion is not invented by man, but directed by God, delivered by God to men (Jude 3). Men are not free to do as they please as they come to God and serve Him. They are to do as He pleases. So it is with the organization of God's church.
Paul spoke to both Timothy and Titus about bishops (overseers) in the church. Among the things he said was that a bishop MUST be the husband of one wife (I Tim.3:2). Is a single man the husband of one wife? Of course not. How absurd! Paul said that the bishop must manage his household well, keeping his children in control (v.4) or how else will he know how to manage the church? Titus was to appoint men IF each was the husband of one wife and had children who believe (Titus 1:6). Other requirements were given in both cases.
And, of course, the RCC [and Orthodox] is in error about that.
We also find in scripture that three words refer to this same group of men.
episkopos – translated bishop or overseer
poimen – translated pastor or shepherd
presbuteros – translated elder or presbyter
Paul had left Titus in Crete to appoint elders (1:5) and then gave requirements, "namely if any man be above reproach…. For the bishop must be above reproach…." (v.6,7). Thus, he uses two words for the same men – elder and bishop.
We see the same thing in Acts 20. Paul was in Miletus and sent to Ephesus, requesting the elders there to come to him (v.17). Still speaking to the same men, he said, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you bishops, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." (v.28).
These men, elders, had been made bishops, and were to shepherd the church, to guard the flock. Thus, elders are bishops and shepherds.
The same truth can be found in Peter's words in I Pet.5. He wrote, "Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God, and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock." (v.1-3). Peter reveals that besides being an apostle, he was also an elder. He exhorted his fellow elders to shepherd the flock, exercising the oversight. Elders (presbuteros), shepherd (poimen), oversight (episkopos). Elders are older men who are bishops (having oversight), who shepherd the flock.
There was a plural number of elders/bishops/shepherds in each congregation/city in the first century, an organization of the church given by God through the apostles and prophets. Titus was left in Crete to appoint elders in every city (v.5). Thus, each congregation had more than one (elderS).
We have already noticed that Ephesus in Paul's discussion in Acts 20 had a plural number of these men, elders/bishops/shepherds. In Phil.1:1, Paul greeted the church, including "the bishops and deacons". There was more than one bishop for that congregation too, God's plan of organization.
James wrote that the elders of the church were to be called if someone were sick, so they might pray for the sick person. Since it would not be feasible for bishops to travel from large distances (especially in the first century) to visit each sick person, this again refers to the bishops/elders/shepherds from a single congregation, the congregation of the one who was sick.
In the meeting in Jerusalem, the apostles and elders came together (Acts 15:2,4,6,22ff), a plural number again of these men in Jerusalem. In Acts 11:30, a contribution for poor Christians was sent to the elders. The elders (plural number) of the church in Jerusalem are mentioned again in Acts 21:18.
In Acts 14:23, the same teaching is present, that these elders/bishops/shepherds were in plural number in every congregation, God's plan for His church. "And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed."
These men, elders/bishops/shepherds, were to rule over and shepherd the flock that was among them (I Pet.5; Acts 20). Thus, their authority was limited to their own congregation, necessarily so, since each congregation had its own group of elders/bishops/pastors.
The above is apostolic. The above was delivered to the saints in the first century. Of course, the RCC and the ORTHODOX (two parts of the same apostasy (I Tim.4:1ff), have changed what God decreed and follows their own desires.
Since the Learned Father Trenham holds a PhD from Durham University (it's available online), I would ask him if he thinks the Dryburne Martyrs were validly baptised?
Given how Pope Frances is dismantling the Latin Chuch's heritage, and how dizzyingly quickly he makes far-reaching, radical changes, one is forced to the conclusion that not only is Papal Infallibility a heresy, but it is now, BY THE ADMISSIONS OF CONCERNED LATIN CHURCH PRACTITIONERS THEMSELVES, shown in all its "glory" to have always been utterly impractical and unworkabke.
Roman Papism is unworkable. Protestantism is a disorganised, crumbling mess of random, unconnected teachings, heresies and 'churches' (plural) popping up out of nowhere … Islam is licking its chops.
Only the the one true, Eastern, Church remains true to its legacy and faith, come what may.
Even as a Muslim who disagrees with theology the Apostolic church. I have high respect for all my Catholic, Orthodox and Church of the East brothers and sister beliefs. Mind you I lived with Christian and ultimately ended up as atheist but after few years it lead me to depression and eastern religions/traditions which was great however there was a disconnect on the levels of subjects of knowledge in the faiths. And Ultimately I came back to Islam after watching many recent debate videos and just praying after so long. Still I want to say all those from the Apostolic church you are my brothers and sisters even if I disagree with you . May we unite in peace 🕊️. Amen
The Catholic Church came into existence 12/25/800; prior to that the Popes of Rome were Orthodox, after that Catholic. The Roman Empire and the Orthodox Church were occupied with the Second Jihad at the time and ignored the events in the Western Provinces. An Orthodox Pope of Rome should have been elected at that time—Rome, like Alexandria, would then have two Popes: Orthodox and Catholic in Rome, Orthodox and Coptic in Alexandria.
I must say that the Latin church also professes that their is one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in the Nicene Creed. I don't know if that is a new development post Vatican 2 or not as I'm a new convert, I do know that after Vatican 2 we now recognize the Eastern Orthodox Communion as being valid and an Eastern Ortho can receive communion from any Latin parish- I do not believe the Eastern Orthodox recognizes our communion and a friend has told me that I could not receive communion from an Eastern Church. If I'm wrong about any of that I'd like to be corrected, but my main point is that we recognize the church as one, but would like the Eastern Church to… lay down their arms for lack of a better phrase.
Anglo-orthodox here for lack of a better description. Just want to say thank you for a wonderful presentation! We are in absolute agreement. I don't deny 40 days of mourning after the death of a believer, but I only wonder what does Saint Paul mean when he writes "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"? How are we to understand / reconcile those teachings?