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30 thoughts on “VIDEO: Four Reasons to Reject The Filioque Acording To St. Gregory Palamas.”
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I’d love to see you discuss this issue on the Reason & Theology YouTube channel with Michael Lofton, Erick Ybarra & William Albrëcht!
Thank you Fr. Chris, you are such a blessing to the Church! Γρηγόρης
You are a blessing to my family and I! Γρηγόρης
Do you have your translation available for download or purchase anywhere?
Thank you teacher for explaining, i am Assyrian from church of the east. I love the orthodox church with all my heart. You explained very well
Palamas is brilliant! He surely has experienced God and the Heavens. I was surprised how identical his accounts and descriptions to my experiences with God and the other side. Any Person who has not experienced the energy of God and the Heavens, but has only been stubborn in citing reading and learning texts with out believing and living them, can never experience the grace and nature of god and through this the understanding of the spirit and also of Jesus life and mission hear on earth. God has truely revealed himself to Palamas! Glory be to God! And many praises to Palamas.
ok so you are conflating councils. The first council of Nicea WAS attended by the pope's legate, Hosius of Cordoba. Hosius of Cordoba PRESIDED over the council. The synods of 1341-1351 were not ecumenical councils. The Patriarch of Constantinople and all those who heald to orthodoxy were excommunicated by the Hesakites who introduced a hitherto unknown heresy. In fact, no other apostolic church accepts this peculiar heresy found in Eastern Orthodoxy.
WHO a little bit Arian there. The Father Son and holy Spirit are ALL God and are all eternal
Just give me the book!
Please pray for me… for conversion and holiness and healing…. thank you….
Came here from Jay Dyer's channel. I Subscribed. I'm in support of channels that defend the Orthodox Church. Your discussion with Jay was interesting. Also good video. God bless.
A very right orthodox position Fr.Chris Moody!
Filioque is not only an insertion in the Nicene creed, but also contradicts the decrees of the Second Ecumenical Council, reviving the heresies of subordinationism and macedonianism. The Council decided the origin of the Holy spirit from the Father and the EQUALITY of the Divine hypostases, with the EXCEPTION of the causality of the Father in relation to the Son and the Holy Spirit. From this it is evident that the Spirit proceeds from the Father, as the Son does, but cannot proceed from the Son.
The father's like Athanasius,Cyril of Alexandria,epiphanuis of Cyrus all said spirit proceed from father and son, and in new testament spirit is called spirit of wisdom, spirit of son ,spirit of jesus christ and popes venerated by east also thought the procession from both father and son,and also maximus the confessor, we do not say there are two causes of spirit but one the father,and spirit processes from father through son ,by denying holy spirit is spirit of jesus one deny Trinity,we have not anything to niceene creed but only use apostolic creed as liturgical creed,the niceene creed is still valid.
Great words, VERY CLEAR.
Unfortunately, I noticed that Dr. Siecienski book is based on dishonesty and a very literal approach to the the verb "ἐκπορεύεται" as if it's unique and only applied the the relation between the Father and the Holy Spirit.
1) The verb "ἐκπορεύεται" which is translated in English as "proceeds" can also be simply translated into different verbs (in English for instance) :
* "However, this kind does not go out "ἐκπορεύεται" except by prayer and fasting.”(Matthew 17:21)
** Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out "ἐκπορεύεται" into the draught, purging all meats (Mark 7:19)
* "They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out "ἐκπορεύεται" to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty."(Revelation 16:14)
This verb was written in an "economia context" not "theologia" >>> The Fathers of the Council of Constantinople changed the conjugation from economia into theologia :
Original John (15:26) : O para tou Patros ekporeuetai
It became : to ek tou Patros Ekporeuomenon (which is proceeded from the Father)
Which proves that economia reveals theologia contrary to what Greek Orthodox say against Catholic teachings on this point. ALSO, we don't find the word "alone" in John (15:26) in regarding the Holy Spirit procession or coming out from the Father.
2) Church Fathers :
He didn't mention this very filioquish quote :
Saint Ephrem declared: "The Father is the Begetter, the Son the Begotten from the bosom of the Father, the Holy Spirit He that proceedeth from the Father and the Son"
(the Syriac text : https://archive.org/stream/sanctiephraemsy01lamygoog#page/n188/mode/2up (paragraph 11)
Dr, Siecienski mentioned the following quote from St. Cyril of Alexandria (insisting that the Saint used ἐκπορεύεται to relate the Holy Spirit to the Father as unique verb)
"For he is (The Holy Spirit) consubstantial with them and he
is poured forth (prokhestai), that is, he proceeds (ekporeutai) as from the fountain of God the Father and he is bestowed on creation through the Son." (Letter 55 / from paragraph 40)
BUT , he didn't mention the following quote from the same Saint (which is a clever remark I found in St. Aquinas "Against the errors of the Greeks):
"For even if the Spirit exists in his own hypostasis, and
moreover is considered by himself insofar as he is the Spirit
and not the Son, yet he is not therefore alien from the Son, for he is called the Spirit of truth and Christ is the truth, and the Spirit is poured forth (prokesthai) from him just as undoubtedly he is also poured forth (prokesthai) from God the Father." (Letter 3 / from paragraph 17)
Let's swap the verbs, and here is the result :
"For even if the Spirit exists in his own hypostasis, and
moreover is considered by himself insofar as he is the Spirit
and not the Son, yet he is not therefore alien from the Son, for he is called the Spirit of truth and Christ is the truth, and the Spirit proceeds from him just as undoubtedly he also proceeds from God the Father." (the Fathers of the Church, Volume 76, page 89)
To proceed, to come out, to pour , to flow from, etc,,, there are all synonyms used by some Church fathers and even if they didn't use synonyms to ἐκπορεύεται, this verb will always grammatically have synonyms as we saw in the biblical verses above.
Finally : from Summa Theologiae /part I/ Question 36 , from article 2 :
"Hence also the Greeks themselves recognize that the procession of the Holy Ghost has some order to the Son. For they grant that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit "of the Son"; and that He is from the Father "through the Son." Some of them are said also to concede that "He is from the Son"; or that "He flows from the Son," but not that He proceeds; which seems to come from ignorance or obstinacy. For a just consideration of the truth will convince anyone that the word procession is the one most commonly applied to all that denotes origin of any kind. For we use the term to describe any kind of origin; as when we say that a line proceeds from a point, a ray from the sun, a stream from a source, and likewise in everything else. Hence, granted that the Holy Ghost originates in any way from the Son, we can conclude that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Son."
Thank you
Joseph Hechema
Maronite Catholic Apologist (Egypt)
But the Father is NOT a Father without a Son, Likewise the Son CAN'T be a Son with the Father. Unless you're saying that the Father hasn't always been the Father in eternity.
If the Father and the Son are co-eternal, neither having a beginning (including the Spirit), which the Bible teaches, therefore there's no issue justifying the Filioque from scripture. Revelation 22:1 is also a strong support for the Filioque including other verses which the fathers used to justify it inclusion in the Creed.
That's just my opinion. I also do hold to the monarchy of the Father as a biblical doctrine.
Shalom
I agree that the filioque shouldnt be added to the creed. However, many latin fathers used expressions similiar to the filioque. So how can it be a heresy?
Which Faith do you practice? I know Orthodoxy but are you Eastern, Greek, Antiochian, Or Byzantine Catholic? Im reading Photios Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit but think I shouldve got Photios against Carolingians? Whats the Palamas Work please can you comment where I can find it.
Speak about substance and activity in Eunomius and how that Essence and Energies distinction kinda of impacts that ingenerate misnomer. Its subtle but ousia and energeia onviously makes the matter clearer in regards to the essence being unknowable but inner faith possible to use a line Romanides theology/lectures.
Although some of the Orthodox prayers speak about the Logos being the unoriginate one as well.
Very well put 👏
New subscriber. Thanks so much Father for posting. Blessed Lent
To all to know’ All orthodox Church Father’s were great saints like St. Basil, St Cyril, St Spiridon St Gregory Palma’s etc they have the gifts of the Holy Spirit before their education and this was and is the number 1 Weakness of the west and will be until they repent and return to themselves and God church.
Our Lord today in Orthodox Churches still blesses as with uncorrupted bodies of Lords people in present time.
Dude excellent talk…. did your beard fall off???😁
John 15:26 is not wrong when it says that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. The Holy Spirit indeed proceeds from the Father too, but where in the scriptures does it say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone? it doesn't, the Holy Spirit indeed proceeds from the Father and the Son and this the scriptures says in many instances:
Revelations 22:1 And he shewed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the lamb.
The river of water of life is the Holy Spirit. See John 7:38-39, where Jesus explicitly states this in reference to the Holy Spirit.
Orthodoxy at first accepted the filioque in the ecumenical Council of Florence in 1452, where the pope, Roman Catholic bishops, orthodox bishops and priests gathered to discuss this, and they did accept. However the Orthodox again turned back, and that is why the next year in 1453 Constantinople (the orthodoxy headquarters) fell to the Muslims on the Feast on Pentecost.
Coincidence?
While the Holy Roman Catholic Church won against the Muslims in the famous Battle of Lepanto.
Marvelous isn't it?
God gave them a 2nd chance to come back to the right faith.
How marvelous the works of God and his ways!
https://youtu.be/_Rrzo55G364
He can't even make the sign of the Cross properly lol
Beautiful
Read why the climate is changing a biblical perspective by Dr Ben Vatican on Amazon.
FrChris Moody, I recall a video you had made, but can't seem to find it anymore where you take the claims from a Sedevacantist cult that accuse Hesychasm of Hinduism, which from what I can tell is mostly association fallacies and not looking into important writings from the Pre Schism Greek fathers, additionally St John of Sinai literally calls the monks of his day Hesychasts (in the 6th-7th century), so part of it is historical ignorance but the accusatory video itself has yet to have an in depth response. But I remember you having a shortened response to their claims.
So my main point is would it be possible to find that video somewhere or did someone else make a video dealing with that question. Thank you and God bless.